CatFan4Ever
Varsity
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Go Cats Go!
Posts: 3,664
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Post by CatFan4Ever on Apr 28, 2016 0:32:45 GMT -6
Also, are they going to count pick off attempt throws? Agreed - I have always wondered why that's not included. Plus all the pre-game warmup pitches and if a reliever off the bench - pitches in bullpen - plus all the warmup to start each inning.... And just because its the UIL and going the next step is easy - what about catchers who also pitch?? All those throws back to the mound and throws to second and first can wear down the arm - and then they can go from catching to pitching in one game....
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Post by warrior1520 on Apr 28, 2016 7:49:00 GMT -6
This is an interesting topic for sure. Unfortunately It's one I have had a little personal experience with too. My oldest son missed his entire senior year on the mound trying to heal a torn UCL. Now he just missed his freshman year at college rehabbing after Tommy John surgery in September. He always took care of his arm after pitching, ran like crazy before and after pitching, Iced up like he was suppose to, but yet it still happened.
Was it due to over throwing? Yes
Although he pitched all the games he could in HS, it was only if they were spaced out where he could get at least three days rest between games and our HS coaches actually had him on a pitch count. Only one HS game he threw 130 pitches and that was because he refused to come out of the game. Arm issues in teenagers come from playing baseball year round. Select ball, travel ball, Perfect Game events, showcases they all need to look at limiting throwing in pitchers and catchers. Some of our schools are also adding to the problem by requiring our kids to pick a sport. Calallen and TM both do this. Instead of having an athletic class they require you to pick an individual sport. If you play football you have to stay in football class even after football is over. This is not only hurting our football program but detouring kids from being multi-sport athletes. That individual kid that may play football but loves baseball or basketball doesn't want to miss out of any opportunity of earning a starting spot in their sport by not being able to put in as much work as others in that sport class while they are lifting weights in the off season.
Year round baseball is not going away. Over the last twenty years the whole scouting and recruiting process has changed for college recruiting due to summer baseball. Players are scouted for the most part between the summer of their sophomore year to the summer of their junior year. The coaches want to get these players committed by their junior year in HS especially large schools. There are always exceptions to this but the largest percentage of players are recruited this way. If you see a college coach at a high school game it's because they have already seen the kid they are watching during the summer. I've had recruiters tell me personally that they are busy during our HS season too, they are also playing and practicing. D1 schools are very limited by NCAA rules on the times that they can actually go watch a kid at a HS game. They can see hundreds of kids a weekend at a major USSSA tournament, Perfect Game or Premier Baseball event.
Little League Baseball recognized this problem and took action years ago, other organizations like Perfect Game, Premier Baseball and USSSA are starting to look at and take actions towards limiting pitchers and catchers now after the increase in youth arm injuries over the last fifteen years or so. But by a kid playing in multiple leagues he may be abiding by the rules but still over pitching or throwing. Ultimately it is the parents responsibility to watch and determine how much is too much baseball.
Don't ever discourage your kid from "Taking a break" from a sport especially baseball.
My youngest son will be a freshmen next year, he also pitches a lot. His brother is constantly telling him to slow down pitching and focus more on a position player. As a parent I am trying to limit him more on the mound. But it's hard to do to. I want him to have the same opportunities his brother had in playing and in the scouting and recruiting process. Unfortunately that process involves summer baseball.
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Post by picodegallo on Apr 28, 2016 8:39:05 GMT -6
This is an interesting topic for sure. Unfortunately It's one I have had a little personal experience with too. My oldest son missed his entire senior year on the mound trying to heal a torn UCL. Now he just missed his freshman year at college rehabbing after Tommy John surgery in September. He always took care of his arm after pitching, ran like crazy before and after pitching, Iced up like he was suppose to, but yet it still happened. Was it due to over throwing? Yes Although he pitched all the games he could in HS, it was only if they were spaced out where he could get at least three days rest between games and our HS coaches actually had him on a pitch count. Only one HS game he threw 130 pitches and that was because he refused to come out of the game. Arm issues in teenagers come from playing baseball year round. Select ball, travel ball, Perfect Game events, showcases they all need to look at limiting throwing in pitchers and catchers. Some of our schools are also adding to the problem by requiring our kids to pick a sport. Calallen and TM both do this. Instead of having an athletic class they require you to pick an individual sport. If you play football you have to stay in football class even after football is over. This is not only hurting our football program but detouring kids from being multi-sport athletes. That individual kid that may play football but loves baseball or basketball doesn't want to miss out of any opportunity of earning a starting spot in their sport by not being able to put in as much work as others in that sport class while they are lifting weights in the off season. Year round baseball is not going away. Over the last twenty years the whole scouting and recruiting process has changed for college recruiting due to summer baseball. Players are scouted for the most part between the summer of their sophomore year to the summer of their junior year. The coaches want to get these players committed by their junior year in HS especially large schools. There are always exceptions to this but the largest percentage of players are recruited this way. If you see a college coach at a high school game it's because they have already seen the kid they are watching during the summer. I've had recruiters tell me personally that they are busy during our HS season too, they are also playing and practicing. D1 schools are very limited by NCAA rules on the times that they can actually go watch a kid at a HS game. They can see hundreds of kids a weekend at a major USSSA tournament, Perfect Game or Premier Baseball event. Little League Baseball recognized this problem and took action years ago, other organizations like Perfect Game, Premier Baseball and USSSA are starting to look at and take actions towards limiting pitchers and catchers now after the increase in youth arm injuries over the last fifteen years or so. But by a kid playing in multiple leagues he may be abiding by the rules but still over pitching or throwing. Ultimately it is the parents responsibility to watch and determine how much is too much baseball. Don't ever discourage your kid from "Taking a break" from a sport especially baseball. My youngest son will be a freshmen next year, he also pitches a lot. His brother is constantly telling him to slow down pitching and focus more on a position player. As a parent I am trying to limit him more on the mound. But it's hard to do to. I want him to have the same opportunities his brother had in playing and in the scouting and recruiting process. Unfortunately that process involves summer baseball. Alot of good stuff said right here. It's good the bigger/national organizations who run tourney's are starting to take the arm issue seriously. Unfortunately the more localized ones will be last on board with it and that is probably more of a cause for some of the arm issues than anything. I recall when mine played Little League, you had kids who played their Little League game who as soon as the last out was called were changing uniforms to the Select league and mom or dad were rushing them to the fields on the other side of town to play another game or two that day. This was about the time the Select league thing really began to take off. When all was said and done, that young one might have played six or seven games within a three day period. Not good for a developing arm. An older high school kid and college player might very well be able to handle the demand of a schedule like that, but not a young kid who is going through developmental stages. In some kids, it catches up to them while their younger while others it occurs when they hit the high school ranks. I agree with you also about the class thing. Go to a general athletic period at the end of the day or whenever. Once one sport is over, then the multi sport athlete can move over to that sport during that period. Or in the interest of keeping that multi sport athlete who is also a football player in the loop for conditioning purposes, declare the athletic period for all sports a conditioning period and focus practice time after the bell rings. Exceptions of course would have to be made for game days for certain kids, maybe giving them a day or two off before a game from off season football conditioning. But at least they will get some conditioning during the off season. The UIL could help us all out by moving the start of practice schedules back a few weeks for basketball and baseball so the crossover between seasons is minimized. Baseball and late January/early February weather often do not mix, even in Texas and South Texas for that matter.
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Post by catfromwayback on Apr 28, 2016 17:10:52 GMT -6
I guess it all comes down to the parents limiting how many teams and leagues the kid plays in before he ever gets to high school. IMO, it's a HS coach's job to win, not babysit. I agree that there is a limit and that limit is different for every arm. Maybe telling little Billy "no" when he wants to play year-round is the way to go because by the end of his senior year in HS he will have the only live arm left according to some. Most coaches will do everything they can to keep kids healthy despite some thoughts and I've never seen a coach put a kid on the mound that didn't want to be there. Arm injuries happen. Many times early in a game after plenty of rest. It's just like any other tendon or ligament. It's not always due to overuse.
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Post by gpfan55 on Apr 28, 2016 17:42:32 GMT -6
This new rule should be called "The Chapman Rule" Why you want to take a cheap shot at Chapman? Is it because of his success or your own lack thereof? When you can't beat em and you can't join em......I guess all you can do is hate em. I REALLY ADMIRE the program at Calallen. I played Division 1 baseball (pitcher).
No cheap shot. I saw Chapman pitch Jordan John on a Friday night in the playoffs (hard fought complete game with over 100 pitches) and bring him back into a game SATURDAY AFTERNOON. That was the afternoon he blew his elbow ligament and had Tommy John surgery. I'm sure I'll be told that was just a coincidence but............ I got into this a few years ago with Cal fans who told me I was full of s h * *. Last time I will talk about this but a rule will prevent coaches from abusing the arms of young pitchers is long overdue.
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Post by warrior1520 on Apr 29, 2016 6:47:09 GMT -6
I guess it all comes down to the parents limiting how many teams and leagues the kid plays in before he ever gets to high school. IMO, it's a HS coach's job to win, not babysit. I agree that there is a limit and that limit is different for every arm. Maybe telling little Billy "no" when he wants to play year-round is the way to go because by the end of his senior year in HS he will have the only live arm left according to some. Most coaches will do everything they can to keep kids healthy despite some thoughts and I've never seen a coach put a kid on the mound that didn't want to be there. Arm injuries happen. Many times early in a game after plenty of rest. It's just like any other tendon or ligament. It's not always due to overuse. I'll agree cfwb, it's ultimately the responsibility of the parents to start limiting their kids throwing at an early age. Injuries do happen sometimes and overthrowing is not always the issue. But it is becoming something that was virtually unheard of twenty years ago. I can't name not one kid that I played baseball with through high school that ever had an arm injury requiring surgery. Now, I don't have enough fingers to count all the kids I've seen just in the last five years that have. My youngest son is 14 and is in his last year at Oil Belt juniors. There are three boys he plays with that are out for the rest of the season with either an arm or shoulder issue. One of those played two games this season and one never played and inning once practice started, and the other just went down last week. And I'll agree that I can't believe ANY high school or college coach would intentionally put one of his players at risk of injury. I do think that sometimes the ultimate goal of "winning" fogs their decisions. I can't name one parent that would step up with a set of huevos and tell Coach Chapman, "Take my kid off the mound, he's thrown enough." (No cheap shot at Coach Chapman, but just an example of a strong willed type of coach) That would probably be his last appearance on the mound.
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Post by warrior1520 on Apr 29, 2016 7:16:35 GMT -6
Why you want to take a cheap shot at Chapman? Is it because of his success or your own lack thereof? When you can't beat em and you can't join em......I guess all you can do is hate em. I REALLY ADMIRE the program at Calallen. I played Division 1 baseball (pitcher).
No cheap shot. I saw Chapman pitch Jordan John on a Friday night in the playoffs (hard fought complete game with over 100 pitches) and bring him back into a game SATURDAY AFTERNOON. That was the afternoon he blew his elbow ligament and had Tommy John surgery. I'm sure I'll be told that was just a coincidence but............ I got into this a few years ago with Cal fans who told me I was full of s h * *. Last time I will talk about this but a rule will prevent coaches from abusing the arms of young pitchers is long overdue.
Nobody said a word when Lee May Gonzales reached 167 pitches at Fairgrounds field a few years ago against Alamo Heights, not even his father would tell the coaches "enough is enough" then his last pitch hit the top of the net behind home plate. That is until Calallen lost. Then the grumbling from the crowd and the bleacher coaches started saying , "What was he thinking? They should have pulled him sooner, He cost us the game."
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Post by picodegallo on Apr 29, 2016 7:23:27 GMT -6
I guess it all comes down to the parents limiting how many teams and leagues the kid plays in before he ever gets to high school. IMO, it's a HS coach's job to win, not babysit. I agree that there is a limit and that limit is different for every arm. Maybe telling little Billy "no" when he wants to play year-round is the way to go because by the end of his senior year in HS he will have the only live arm left according to some. Most coaches will do everything they can to keep kids healthy despite some thoughts and I've never seen a coach put a kid on the mound that didn't want to be there. Arm injuries happen. Many times early in a game after plenty of rest. It's just like any other tendon or ligament. It's not always due to overuse. I'll agree cfwb, it's ultimately the responsibility of the parents to start limiting their kids throwing at an early age. Injuries do happen sometimes and overthrowing is not always the issue. But it is becoming something that was virtually unheard of twenty years ago. I can't name not one kid that I played baseball with through high school that ever had an arm injury requiring surgery. Now, I don't have enough fingers to count all the kids I've seen just in the last five years that have. My youngest son is 14 and is in his last year at Oil Belt juniors. There are three boys he plays with that are out for the rest of the season with either an arm or shoulder issue. One of those played two games this season and one never played and inning once practice started, and the other just went down last week. And I'll agree that I can't believe ANY high school or college coach would intentionally put one of his players at risk of injury. I do think that sometimes the ultimate goal of "winning" fogs their decisions. I can't name one parent that would step up with a set of huevos and tell Coach Chapman, "Take my kid off the mound, he's thrown enough." (No cheap shot at Coach Chapman, but just an example of a strong willed type of coach) That would probably be his last appearance on the mound. Back in the day ( the 80's) the most common baseball injury issue from a pitching perspective was general muscle strain. "Tommy John" wasn't even in our vocabulary. We also didn't have Select League or year around baseball. In fact baseball for the most part in Texas was kind of a pass the time sport and an escape for some of us who didn't want to run track. We played summer baseball for maybe six or seven weeks and then it was time to get ready for two a days for those who played football. And we certainly didn't have a baseball class in school.
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Post by gpjohn on Apr 29, 2016 8:25:55 GMT -6
Why you want to take a cheap shot at Chapman? Is it because of his success or your own lack thereof? When you can't beat em and you can't join em......I guess all you can do is hate em. I REALLY ADMIRE the program at Calallen. I played Division 1 baseball (pitcher).
No cheap shot. I saw Chapman pitch Jordan John on a Friday night in the playoffs (hard fought complete game with over 100 pitches) and bring him back into a game SATURDAY AFTERNOON. That was the afternoon he blew his elbow ligament and had Tommy John surgery. I'm sure I'll be told that was just a coincidence but............ I got into this a few years ago with Cal fans who told me I was full of s h * *. Last time I will talk about this but a rule will prevent coaches from abusing the arms of young pitchers is long overdue.
Crickets from calallen! I agree, rules should be put in place to help protect young players arms. You can bet every college and especially pro player from A ball to the majors is on a pitch count. The problem is really the year round play, plus kids playing in multiple leagues. I wonder if parents will ever figure out that the "select" team is more about selecting parents who will pay for their kid to play, thinking they are going to get a scholarship out of it, or drafted by MLB. A friend fro the HSTN area told me that a couple of the big "name" traveling select teams there cost 5K to join the team, and about another 15K/year in individual instruction and traveling fees. It's a racket!
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Post by squintspalledorous on Apr 29, 2016 12:34:15 GMT -6
I REALLY ADMIRE the program at Calallen. I played Division 1 baseball (pitcher).
No cheap shot. I saw Chapman pitch Jordan John on a Friday night in the playoffs (hard fought complete game with over 100 pitches) and bring him back into a game SATURDAY AFTERNOON. That was the afternoon he blew his elbow ligament and had Tommy John surgery. I'm sure I'll be told that was just a coincidence but............ I got into this a few years ago with Cal fans who told me I was full of s h * *. Last time I will talk about this but a rule will prevent coaches from abusing the arms of young pitchers is long overdue.
Nobody said a word when Lee May Gonzales reached 167 pitches at Fairgrounds field a few years ago against Alamo Heights, not even his father would tell the coaches "enough is enough" then his last pitch hit the top of the net behind home plate. That is until Calallen lost. Then the grumbling from the crowd and the bleacher coaches started saying , "What was he thinking? They should have pulled him sooner, He cost us the game." I was at that game and Cal should've won. Does anyone know what the coaches were thinking in that game after the p kept walking ppl
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Post by catfromwayback on Apr 29, 2016 20:10:43 GMT -6
I REALLY ADMIRE the program at Calallen. I played Division 1 baseball (pitcher).
No cheap shot. I saw Chapman pitch Jordan John on a Friday night in the playoffs (hard fought complete game with over 100 pitches) and bring him back into a game SATURDAY AFTERNOON. That was the afternoon he blew his elbow ligament and had Tommy John surgery. I'm sure I'll be told that was just a coincidence but............ I got into this a few years ago with Cal fans who told me I was full of s h * *. Last time I will talk about this but a rule will prevent coaches from abusing the arms of young pitchers is long overdue.
Crickets from calallen! I agree, rules should be put in place to help protect young players arms. You can bet every college and especially pro player from A ball to the majors is on a pitch count. The problem is really the year round play, plus kids playing in multiple leagues. I wonder if parents will ever figure out that the "select" team is more about selecting parents who will pay for their kid to play, thinking they are going to get a scholarship out of it, or drafted by MLB. A friend fro the HSTN area told me that a couple of the big "name" traveling select teams there cost 5K to join the team, and about another 15K/year in individual instruction and traveling fees. It's a racket! You're hearing crickets from Calallen because that's not at all the way JJ's injury came about. He was fully rested. He had not pitched in a week. Can't argue a theory when the facts about it are wrong.
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Post by picodegallo on May 2, 2016 7:24:40 GMT -6
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Post by warrior1520 on May 2, 2016 13:28:16 GMT -6
Great article and it just goes to show that Little League Baseball was the pioneer in implementing pitch counts years ago and foresaw a problem in youth injuries way before other organizations or a lot of doctors realized it.
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Post by gpfan55 on May 2, 2016 17:42:37 GMT -6
Crickets from calallen! I agree, rules should be put in place to help protect young players arms. You can bet every college and especially pro player from A ball to the majors is on a pitch count. The problem is really the year round play, plus kids playing in multiple leagues. I wonder if parents will ever figure out that the "select" team is more about selecting parents who will pay for their kid to play, thinking they are going to get a scholarship out of it, or drafted by MLB. A friend fro the HSTN area told me that a couple of the big "name" traveling select teams there cost 5K to join the team, and about another 15K/year in individual instruction and traveling fees. It's a racket! You're hearing crickets from Calallen because that's not at all the way JJ's injury came about. He was fully rested. He had not pitched in a week. Can't argue a theory when the facts about it are wrong. You are wrong. He pitched the night before. That's why he didn't start on Saturday.
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Post by catfromwayback on May 3, 2016 1:09:47 GMT -6
You're hearing crickets from Calallen because that's not at all the way JJ's injury came about. He was fully rested. He had not pitched in a week. Can't argue a theory when the facts about it are wrong. You are wrong. He pitched the night before. That's why he didn't start on Saturday. Sorry, but YOU are wrong. He started the game he got injured. He was fully rested. I can't imagine how many times you've told your error-filled concocted story in order to make some point, but it's been enough times that now even you believe it. You say "I saw Chapman" do this and do that, but in reality, you did not see it because it never happened. You might want to use a different story when arguing your point. Maybe a true one, or at least one that is not so easily debunked and remembered well by so many other people.
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